What model are these ARs?

[t1500]

I went to look at what were supposed to be AR3's but obviously not. The woofer cone is 7.5" across. Basket 10".

Cabinets 13.75" W, 23.75" H, 11.75" D. Tweeter is 1.75".

No treble pot, just a switch.

I've re-foamed before, is this pair worth bothering with? Spiders seem ok, haven't checked them electrically.

I've wanted AR3A's since they came out, so was salivating when I heard about these, but oh well.

Pix attached.

Thanks

[xmas111]

Look like 4x.

John

[t1500]

I have a pair of 4x, these are much larger. Thanks

[ra.ra]

Not entirely sure, but it looks to me like you've got a pair of AR-8's. Same (or very similar) woofer as later AR-2ax and AR-5, and same (or very similar) tweeter as 4ax, 6 and 7 models. Methinks they had cabinets same size as the 2ax and 5, but offered only in vinyl.

[ra.ra]

meant to include.....

While these were never AR's most popular offering from the 'classic' years, they have excellent drivers and are probably a very well-designed speaker. AR marketing promoted them for "rock music", so I say fix 'em up, then crank 'em up.

[xmas111]

Looks like Rob nailed it!

The dome on the tweeter looks a little crushed. Might want to try and pop it back out.

There's a few threads on CSP on how to do it......here's a couple

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=6219

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=4956

John

[t1500]

Thanks guys.

These looked so much older than 70's, like from early 60's, found in a barn I think.

I'll dig a bit deeper here.

Oh, and I've popped out other tweeters or dust caps using the paper towel tube method. I'll try that and/or your suggestions on these tweeters if I buy them.

Note I've taken advice from somewhere, maybe here:

DO NOT use the sucking on paper towel tube method in view of other people or near a window.

[RoyC]

Not entirely sure, but it looks to me like you've got a pair of AR-8's. Same (or very similar) woofer as later AR-2ax and AR-5, and same (or very similar) tweeter as 4ax, 6 and 7 models. Methinks they had cabinets same size as the 2ax and 5, but offered only in vinyl.

AR-8.jpg

They are AR-8's, introduced in 1973....with drivers as described by ra.ra. I have only seen a few of them, and they all had wood (walnut) veneer. Like the AR-7, early cabinets may have had wood veneer and later cabinets vinyl.

Roy

[Steve F]

They are AR-8's. Not exactly a high point of the AR Classic series--in fact, the only outright commercial failure of the entire 1954-1974 Classic lineup. I have written extensively about these speakers before, from a technical and historic standpoint. Do a search for them.

BTW, the 8 was vinyl all the way, never offered in real wood. The system was described by AR as having a lower FAR than the 5/2ax/LST-2 woofer (system resonance was spec'd at 52 vs. 56 for the others), and the woofer was loosely described as having "more power handling" than the others, but none of that was put into numbers.

Over the years, the woofer has become just a "universal replacement" 10-inch woofer, same as the 2 or 5.

The 8 came and went very quickly, less than a year before the ADD line came out in March 1975.

Steve F.

[RoyC]

BTW, the 8 was vinyl all the way, never offered in real wood. The system was described by AR as having a lower FAR than the 5/2ax/LST-2 woofer (system resonance was spec'd at 52 vs. 56 for the others), and the woofer was loosely described as having "more power handling" than the others, but none of that was put into numbers.

Steve F.

HI Steve,

Hate to nitpick...but Larry took a pair in on trade a couple of months ago. They had chipped wood veneer cabinets, but were AR-8's through and through.

Actually I thought they sounded quite good. The crossover was identical to the AR-7 and later AR-6...a single cap, and nothing else. It would appear power handling would have been a huge problem.

Roy

[ra.ra]

Aaahhhh, the elusive and forlorn AR-8. I am fairly certain that I've never seen or heard this product in person, and in the recent years (after a decades-long hiatus) that I've regained an interest in these old speakers, I've probably only seen 2 pairs of AR-8's for sale - - one on the baywatch and one on the local craigslist - - and only one of these pairs was "stock".

My limited knowledge of the AR-8 was somewhat in line with Steve's more extensive knowledge - - vinyl cabinets only - - but if Roy/Larry have seen a wood veneer cabinet, it should come as no surprise. Even if this model was marketed in literature only as "walnut grained", it is fully imaginable that some AR-8 speakers left the factory with cabinets (baffle board cut-outs excluded) originally fabricated for the 2ax or 5 models (i.e. same dimensions). Image below is from 1974 literature (which also notes 2ax available in "walnut grained", which I've never seen).

Steve's comment about the AR-8 being a bit of a sales failure is certainly correct, but at the time AR was floundering with corporate product direction and perhaps even a bit desperate to regain some appreciable market share. Nonetheless, it is encouraging to hear Roy state that his recent listening experience with the AR-8 was most favorable, and this, too, should not be surprising if one has any experience listening to this woofer and/or tweeter in other AR models.

So, to the OP, these speakers do remain a bit rare, and if the price is right (and particularly if real wood veneer cabinets) perhaps you should adopt them and see what you can do. All of the readers here would be interested in your process of restoration as well as your subjective critique.

And to Roy, could you please expound a bit about the potential huge power handling problem?

[RoyC]

And to Roy, could you please expound a bit about the potential huge power handling problem?

....just speculation based on the extremely simple crossover and the tweeter. The marketing advertised the AR-8 as being a good speaker for rock music, so it would have been competing with the likes of the Large Advent. Based on listening to Larry's acquisitions, and my experience with the earliest version of this tweeter (pre-ferro-fluid), I believe the 8 would have had a tough time competing at high volume levels. Presumably, the similar AR-6 and 7 may have been a bit more sensitive, and would not have been expected to be pushed as hard as the larger 8.

One other thing about the specimens I experienced...They had the typical pot level control for the tweeter, not a switch as listed in the brochures. They had to be very early versions. I know the AR-7 and 6 later acquired switches after an early start with pots and wood veneer. Who knows...Did AR publish detailed brochures/specs for every iteration of the 6 and 7? Did the array of crossover changes in the 6 ever show up anywhere?

Roy

[Rich W]

....just speculation based on the extremely simple crossover and the tweeter. The marketing advertised the AR-8 as being a good speaker for rock music, so it would have been competing with the likes of the Large Advent. . .

Roy

No doubt a pair of AR-8's will run into trouble long before a pair of Large Advents when playing at very high volume levels, especially with that relatively delicate tweeter. But the 8's will certainly sound smoother, with none of the upper midrange peakiness the Advent exhibits. And there's the rub. "High volume capable" and "smooth response" seem to be mutually exclusive until you get into LST territory. Back in day, I actually traded in my AR-3a's for Large Advents, because the 3a's kept on burning out tweeters. Now that I listen at "reasonable" levels, I've reverted back to a pair of restored 3a's.

Rich W

[RoyC]

No doubt a pair of AR-8's will run into trouble long before a pair of Large Advents when playing at very high volume levels, especially with that relatively delicate tweeter. But the 8's will certainly sound smoother, with none of the upper midrange peakiness the Advent exhibits. And there's the rub. "High volume capable" and "smooth response" seem to be mutually exclusive until you get into LST territory. Back in day, I actually traded in my AR-3a's for Large Advents, because the 3a's kept on burning out tweeters. Now that I listen at "reasonable" levels, I've reverted back to a pair of restored 3a's.

Rich W

I agree, Rich. Around 1981 I rid myself of Large Advents (two pairs) in favor of one pair of used 2ax's for the same reason. Of course, even then, I first had to deal with the dreaded pots.

Roy

[ra.ra]

Thanks, I get it now.

I had not made the connection between the notions that the AR-8 was touted as the "rock music speaker" (i.e. loud SPL's?) and the fact that this tweeter was pre-ferro fluid (i.e. lesser power handling capacity).

The observations about real wood vs. vinyl are indeed interesting, but even more so, Roy comments that some AR-8's had treble control pots rather than switches, and once again, we begin to see another instance of the timeline evolution of AR product development. Similarly, this is the first time I've ever heard of early AR-7's as having pots as well.

Did the AR-8, with its similarly simple crossover design to the AR-6 and AR-7, have the same capacitor value for the tweeter?

[RoyC]

Did the AR-8, with its similarly simple crossover design to the AR-6 and AR-7, have the same capacitor value for the tweeter?

Yes...a 6uf blue Sprague cap was the entire crossover.

Roy

[Steve F]

HI Steve,

Hate to nitpick...but Larry took a pair in on trade a couple of months ago. They had chipped wood veneer cabinets, but were AR-8's through and through.

Actually I thought they sounded quite good. The crossover was identical to the AR-7 and later AR-6...a single cap, and nothing else. It would appear power handling would have been a huge problem.

Roy

Roy,

You're not nitpicking.

Having worked in Marketing/Engineering/Manufacturing my entire career, there are countless instances when a company has a lot of "this" left over and a bunch of "those," so they go to a customer and say, "How would you like your very own special-run Model X's? No one else will have them but you."

That kind of thing, or a variation thereof.

The 8 was never "officially" offered in walnut real-wood veneer, but, there they are, in the flesh, as real as can be at Vintage AR.

Just goes to prove the truism that my favorite college marketing professor used to say, "Never say never, never say always."

Steve F.

[tysontom]

....just speculation based on the extremely simple crossover and the tweeter. The marketing advertised the AR-8 as being a good speaker for rock music, so it would have been competing with the likes of the Large Advent. Based on listening to Larry's acquisitions, and my experience with the earliest version of this tweeter (pre-ferro-fluid), I believe the 8 would have had a tough time competing at high volume levels. Presumably, the similar AR-6 and 7 may have been a bit more sensitive, and would not have been expected to be pushed as hard as the larger 8.

One other thing about the specimens I experienced...They had the typical pot level control for the tweeter, not a switch as listed in the brochures. They had to be very early versions. I know the AR-7 and 6 later acquired switches after an early start with pots and wood veneer. Who knows...Did AR publish detailed brochures/specs for every iteration of the 6 and 7? Did the array of crossover changes in the 6 ever show up anywhere?

Roy

The AR-8 did have a somewhat higher power-handling capability than other AR 2-way speakers, mainly because the simple crossover was set higher at 1800 Hz, thus removing some of the low-frequency power into the tweeter (which did use silicone grease in the voice coil, but not Ferrofluid). It's doubtful that an AR-8 could go toe-to-toe with the more rugged Large Advent, but the differences would not be great. Both speakers would distort before becoming damaged with most music. Also, the design of the first AR-8 10-inch woofer (200004-1) had less "overhang" than the standard woofer used in the AR-2ax, so the speaker through the bass and lower midrange frequencies had higher sensitivity -- though significantly higher distortion at higher low-frequency levels (not considered a serious problem for rock-music lovers). By 1974, AR began using the "universal" woofer in the AR-8. With the tweeter level at max, there was a marked peak in the AR-8 high-frequency output not present in other AR speakers, thus giving the speaker a bright, forward sound supposedly admired by rock-music devotees. Unfortunately, the speaker was not as well received as hoped. The tweeter level could be tamed somewhat, but overall the balance was brighter and more forward than other AR versions.

The AR-8s were predominately wood-grained vinyl boxes, but some very early ones might have been oiled-walnut veneer. I have never seen them or read about them; all I'm familiar with did have vinyl enclosures. By the way, the AR-7 never had level controls; it always had a two-position switch for level control. The AR-6 did start with a level control and a complex LCR crossover, but later iterations (once everything moved to Norwood) had a simple capacitor crossover and level-control switch.

--Tom Tyson