Help, Please

[Mot]

I'm having trouble with the HiVi Q1r with inductor in my AR-2ax.

Some history: I replaced the caps with Daytons (6uF and 3uF as recommended by Roy C.). I replaced the original pots with Ohmites (RHS15R). When I wired it up for a test today, the tweeter sounds like a very, very weak transistor radio even when played at higher volume and the Ohmite turned all the way up. It does respond to adjustment from both the amplifier and adjustment from the ohmite... it just remains very, very weak and tinny.

I can't figure out how to resize the huge digital pics I took. But I wired everything as shown in these two pics. I have checked, double checked and triple checked the wiring. All wiring matches these photos.

Any and all suggestions and guidance will be very much appreciated.

[Mot]

Okay, resized my pics... here they are...

[RoyC]

Okay, resized my pics... here they are...

Hi Mot,

Your wiring looks good from here.

Have you ever heard the original tweeter? Your impression would be the same if you were to listen to an original without any other drivers playing. That is the way it is supposed to be! It is also why it is hard to duplicate the original tweeter's sound, as a modern tweeter's response needs to be drastically cut off below 5000hz. Listen to the whole system for awhile before drawing any definitive conclusions.

If both tweeters sound the same, it is very likely everything is as it should be.

Roy

[soundminded]

Hi Mot,

Your wiring looks good from here.

Have you ever heard the original tweeter? Your impression would be the same if you were to listen to an original without any other drivers playing. That is the way it is supposed to be! It is also why it is hard to duplicate the original tweeter's sound, as a modern tweeter's response needs to be drastically cut off below 5000hz. Listen to the whole system for awhile before drawing any definitive conclusions.

If both tweeters sound the same, it is very likely everything is as it should be.

Roy

Hi Roy.

"That is the way it is supposed to be!"

That's my experience too. The amount of sound in the top two audible octaves is very small and the human ear isn't particularly sensitive to it compared to lower octaves. However for those who can hear it, it makes a world of difference. Remarkable how much the human brain gleans from adding just that little bit of sound and how critical even small changes can be in the perception of the overall sound.

Here's an interesting experiment. If you try it let me know what you think. Listen to music played through just the tweeter and then while it's playing connect the rest of the system. It seems to me for a second or two you hear the two entities separately, it's as if it takes the brain time to correlate the two sounds and put them together as one.

[Mot]

Thank you both! I really appreciate your info. and suggestions.

Later today or tomorrow, I'll wire the other speaker and compare. I'll report back after I'm done.

I suppose my experience with the AR4x pair I rehabbed has left me expecting something similar from these HiVi tweets.

[JKent]

On 8/22/2011 at 7:53 AM, Mot said:

I suppose my experience with the AR4x pair I rehabbed has left me expecting something similar from these HiVi tweets.

It's not the tweet, it's the crossover. The 2-way AR4 design has the tweet going down farther into the midrange than the 3-way 2ax. In the 2ax the tweeter is really a "supertweeter".

Kent

[dynaco_dan]

Thank you both! I really appreciate your info. and suggestions.

Later today or tomorrow, I'll wire the other speaker and compare. I'll report back after I'm done.

I suppose my experience with the AR4x pair I rehabbed has left me expecting something similar from these HiVi tweets.

Hi there

The difference is very dramatic between the two drivers.

The AR-5 and 3A crossover at 5,000 hz and the AR-4x just over 1,000 hz.

The AR-4X tweeter is one of the few classic cone type tweeters to crossover so low.

The 4X tweeter is more of a midrange driver as well.

I would not expect a lot of obvious noise from any tweeter above 5,000 hz.

More of a hissy, spitty sound, as I remember.

A higher sound output is much more obvious when a tweeter has a peak in the highs, not the gradual downward slope of the AR tweeters.

I attribute this slope as smoothness in my experience and more enjoyable in the long run for it's lack of listener long term listening fatigue.

When I tried to isolate each tweeter on my LST's, I used a toilet paper roll covering the domes individually and listened to test tones and also with my RS

analog and digital sound level meters.

[Mot]

Gentlemen,

I wired the other speaker and it is functioning the same as the first. I’ve been running the pair for a while now and they are sounding great... just as each of you suggested they would! Thank you very, very much!

I attached a drawing, which shows how I wired the tweeters. Please verify that I have wired these correctly.

This forum has been an invaluable resource! Many, Many Thanks!

[RoyC]

I attached a drawing, which shows how I wired the tweeters. Please verify that I have wired these correctly.

It is correct, Mot...

Glad they worked out for you!

Roy

[dynaco_dan]

Thank you both! I really appreciate your info. and suggestions.

Later today or tomorrow, I'll wire the other speaker and compare. I'll report back after I'm done.

I suppose my experience with the AR4x pair I rehabbed has left me expecting something similar from these HiVi tweets.

Hi there

What did you do to rehab the AR-4X speakers?

[Mot]

Roy, thank you! I really appreciate your guidance!

Dan, I did the following for the 4x's:

Replaced the original rheostats (still scratchy after cleaning) with Ohmites.

Installed new Dayton 20uf capacitors.

Replaced the original tweeters (one was dead) with Phenolic Ring Tweeters.

Applied Restor A Finish with 0000 steel wool, followed with Feed N Wax.

[michiganpat]

Roy, thank you! I really appreciate your guidance!

Dan, I did the following for the 4x's:

Replaced the original rheostats (still scratchy after cleaning) with Ohmites.

Installed new Dayton 20uf capacitors.

Replaced the original tweeters (one was dead) with Phenolic Ring Tweeters.

Applied Restor A Finish with 0000 steel wool, followed with Feed N Wax.

if you want a better tweeter than the phenolic ring ones, look for some AR18 tweets to put in your 4x...they were also used in the 4xa, 6,7,8,17,18/s/b,28/s/b,38/s/b, rock partners, 93,94

or IIRC there's a replacement tang band dome and crossover that rayw & zilch came up with on audiokarma...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123113&page=5

see posts 32, 57, 71, 72

[JKent]

Is this the phenolic ring tweeter? http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=270-252 Pretty sure that's what Vintage-AR is selling. Roy may have a comment on improving the sound.

Speaking of Roy, I used his "mod" of my AR4x's: A complete organ transplant. The Avid 100 is a newer but similar speaker system with nice rubber-surround woofers, newer and probably better tweeters, and a film cap in the xo. The cabinet is virtually the same size as the 4x but is awful-looking "woodgrain" vinyl. The solution is to take the drivers and xo and put them in a nice AR cabinet. It's a very simple drop-in swap and sounds good! The Avid level control drops right in the pot hole. The woofer has an external cardboard gasket that should be carefully removed so the speaker grille will fit. I glued the Avid logo to the front of the baffle and if the light hits just right it is visible through the Irish Linen cloth.

I bought these speakers new in 1969--my first hi-fi speakers. And they were my first restoration project. The first try was new grille cloth that was not very authentic-looking. Then came a recap and L-pads. Finally the complete transplant, more authentic grille cloth and Vintage AR's repro logos. At this point the only things original are the cabinets, grille frames and speaker terminals.

Kent

[RoyC]

if you want a better tweeter than the phenolic ring ones, look for some AR18 tweets to put in your 4x...they were also used in the 4xa, 6,7,8,17,18/s/b,28/s/b,38/s/b, rock partners, 93,94

or IIRC there's a replacement tang band dome and crossover that rayw & zilch came up with on audiokarma...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123113&page=5

see posts 32, 57, 71, 72

I agree...Despite the low crossover point, I've experimented with a number of larger dome tweeters in the 4x, including the HiVi Q1R, and found them all to be more satisfying than the phenolic ring replacements, without any crossover modifications at all.

Ebay's "Vintage AR" is selling the phenolic ring replacement tweeter doped with my surround sealant solution, but the improvement is slight, if there is any at all.

Roy

[michiganpat]

I agree...Despite the low crossover point, I've experimented with a number of larger dome tweeters in the 4x, including the HiVi Q1R, and found them all to be more satisfying than the phenolic ring replacements, without any crossover modifications at all.

Ebay's "Vintage AR" is selling the phenolic ring replacement tweeter doped with my surround sealant solution, but the improvement is slight, if there is any at all.

Roy

the roy allison designed tweet in the 18's is among my favorites, I almost enjoy it better than some vifa D27TG's I used in a home-build...I've noticed a lot on ebay lately...I almost wish I woulda experimented with my smaller advents by using the tang band, or the hivi, or a set of used AR18 tweets before selling them....not that they weren't BAD, but the fried egg tweet was a little lacking compared to these...

ok, now I'm getting off on a tangent...

[Mot]

Hi Kent. Yep, those are the tweets. Interesting idea... switching out the drivers and XO from the Avid into the better AR cabinets. Doubt I'll ever do it though. I'm too anal... whata you call 'em? Avid 4x?

Hello Pat and Roy. While I'm not at all dissatisfied with the current output from my 4x pair using phenolic tweets... please describe the ways the sound is enhanced when using the AR-18 tweets. Do the AR-18 tweets require further modifications to the XO or are they a simple drop-in? ...and are these the AR-18 tweets you are suggesting? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acoustic-Research-AR-18-BXi-Pair-Tweeters-1210064-0B-/170688729267?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27bdd750b3

Mot

[RoyC]

Hello Pat and Roy. While I'm not at all dissatisfied with the current output from my 4x pair using phenolic tweets... please describe the ways the sound is enhanced when using the AR-18 tweets. Do the AR-18 tweets require further modifications to the XO or are they a simple drop-in? ...and are these the AR-18 tweets you are suggesting? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acoustic-Research-AR-18-BXi-Pair-Tweeters-1210064-0B-/170688729267?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27bdd750b3

Mot

I happened to be helping "Vintage AR" evaluate the phenolic ring tweeter when I dropped in a HiVi Q1R for comparison...no crossover changes (parallel coils, etc) at all. The Q1R was smoother and more open/natural sounding to my ear. I mentioned that to VAR, but the phenolic ring tweeter looks similar to the original, fits the screw holes perfectly, AND provides a greater profit margin for him. He adds some of my surround sealant to the cone to make it look a bit more authentic and/or different. It really doesn't do much to alter the sound.

I would follow Pat's link to Zilch's AK forum comments. I would not hesitate to try his suggestion. He spent much time measuring and testing various aspects of the AR-4x.

Roy

[Shacky]

Is this the phenolic ring tweeter? http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=270-252 Pretty sure that's what Vintage-AR is selling. Roy may have a comment on improving the sound.

Speaking of Roy, I used his "mod" of my AR4x's: A complete organ transplant. The Avid 100 is a newer but similar speaker system with nice rubber-surround woofers, newer and probably better tweeters, and a film cap in the xo. The cabinet is virtually the same size as the 4x but is awful-looking "woodgrain" vinyl. The solution is to take the drivers and xo and put them in a nice AR cabinet. It's a very simple drop-in swap and sounds good! The Avid level control drops right in the pot hole. The woofer has an external cardboard gasket that should be carefully removed so the speaker grille will fit. I glued the Avid logo to the front of the baffle and if the light hits just right it is visible through the Irish Linen cloth.

I bought these speakers new in 1969--my first hi-fi speakers. And they were my first restoration project. The first try was new grille cloth that was not very authentic-looking. Then came a recap and L-pads. Finally the complete transplant, more authentic grille cloth and Vintage AR's repro logos. At this point the only things original are the cabinets, grille frames and speaker terminals.

Kent

Very interesting. I have a pair of 4X's in my office currently. Had newer 20 uF cap that I left in place. Put some cleaned up original pots from my 3a's. They sound pretty good. Definitely in the AR family.

Would love to hear them next to your Avid-AR project.

[RoyC]

Very interesting. I have a pair of 4X's in my office currently. Had newer 20 uF cap that I left in place. Put some cleaned up original pots from my 3a's. They sound pretty good. Definitely in the AR family.

Would love to hear them next to your Avid-AR project.

Hey Jim,

The Avid 100 transplant is an improvement for the 4x cabinet. Imo, the Avid 100, 102, and 103 are 3 of the best kept secrets of the "acoustic suspension era". Their cabinets are built like tanks, but they are clad in crappy vinyl veneer. I also prefer the larger Avid 102 and 103 over the Large Advent (any version)...though the Advent is definitely prettier. The 103 compares very favorably with the 3-way AR models into the late 70's.

(Avid was founded by Victor Brociner, an early heavyweight in the audio industry. His credentials include co-founding the "Philharmonic Radio Co" in 1937 with Avery Fisher, an influential stint with University Loudspeakers, and Vice Pres. of engineering with H H Scott. Avid's engineer for these mid 70's models, whose name escapes me at the moment, moved on to AR in its later days, and then Boston Acoustics.)

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/jaes.obit/JAES_V25_3_PG167.pdf

Roy

[Mot]

I happened to be helping "Vintage AR" evaluate the phenolic ring tweeter when I dropped in a HiVi Q1R for comparison...no crossover changes (parallel coils, etc) at all. The Q1R was smoother and more open/natural sounding to my ear. I mentioned that to VAR, but the phenolic ring tweeter looks similar to the original, fits the screw holes perfectly, AND provides a greater profit margin for him. He adds some of my surround sealant to the cone to make it look a bit more authentic and/or different. It really doesn't do much to alter the sound.

I would follow Pat's link to Zilch's AK forum comments. I would not hesitate to try his suggestion. He spent much time measuring and testing various aspects of the AR-4x.

Roy

Thanks Roy,

Ever try the AR-18 tweets in the 4x? If so, how did they perform? What's your opinion on this pair? http://www.ebay.com/itm/170688729267?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Mot

[RoyC]

Thanks Roy,

Ever try the AR-18 tweets in the 4x? If so, how did they perform? What's your opinion on this pair? http://www.ebay.com/itm/170688729267?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Mot

Hi Mot,

No, my experience with alternate 4x tweeters is confined to my comments above. Not all dome tweeters will be able to handle the 4x's low crossover point.

Roy

[Mot]

Hi Mot,

No, my experience with alternate 4x tweeters is confined to my comments above. Not all dome tweeters will be able to handle the 4x's low crossover point.

Roy

Thanks Roy, I'll have to try the HiVi tweets (when I get some extra cash...).

[JKent]

Jim: Just to clarify the "Avid 4x" is Roy's "invention." I just followed his instructions. The Avid drivers are high quality stuff.

Roy: Those aluminum adapter rings Zilch made (had made?) for the tweets are super impressive!

Mot: The AR-18 and 18BXi are different animals. The 18 is highly regarded, the 18BXi not so much. Don't know how the tweeters compare.

Kent

[RoyC]

Roy: Those aluminum adapter rings Zilch made (had made?) for the tweets are super impressive!

I would be more inclined to go with Zilch's recommendations for the 4x before anything else. My brief experiment with the HiVi simply affirmed that a larger dome tweeter can be probably be used with the 4x without much (or, possibly, any) crossover change. The Parts Express Dayton 1 1/8" dome has also been favorably mentioned.

We've gotten way off the topic. This should be continued in the mods, tweaks, and upgrades section of the forum.

Roy

[michiganpat]

the tweet I was referring to is this one, in the original 17/18, 8/18/28S 8/18/28B, rock partner, 93&94

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AR-ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-SPEAKER-TWEETERS-PART-200038-0-/260835926097?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3cbb086051

or it's older, front wired version used in the 6,7,8, & 4xa

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acoustic-Research-Cone-Tweeters-AR-4xa-8b-18b-28b-18s-/250877723400?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a697a4308