Are these AR3's?

[canman]

I just found this site which is fabulous

Our unnamed organization is cleaning out some space and these are hanging in a youth play area, believe it or not.  They play well according to staff but they are building new building and this would be, believe it or not ,thrown away. I have these reserved and can probably pick up tomorrow.  I did not want to raise awareness of these so just shot quick photos today.  They are hung from wall which is about 9 to 10 feet tall.

From these rough photos, do they look like AR3s??  Price is FREE!!

SO AMAZING if they are!

[ra.ra]

Hello, and welcome. They do appear to be AR-3's - - - save them and report back.

[JKent]

And hung on the wall, undisturbed for who knows how many years they appear to be in great shape.

When you get them, don't be disappointed if the mids or tweeters don't seem to work. Probably corroded pots.

Removing the grille may be tricky. It is slipped under the front frame at top & bottom. These appear to have the Masonite frames, which are more flexible than the plastic but be careful.

Be sure to look at the AR-3a restoration guide. Most of the information there is applicable to the 3.

A donation to the organization would seem appropriate. Those speakers are worth hundreds.

Good luck and keep us posted. And welcome to the CSP!!

-Kent

[owlsplace]

Yes, save them with thanks ... you may need some help getting them down as they are quite heavy.

Roger

[tysontom]

8 hours ago, ra.ra said:

Hello, and welcome. They do appear to be AR-3's - - - save them and report back.

Those are definitely AR-3s beyond a doubt, but the grills have been off, and someone apparently made new grill frames that are different from the originals, so the speakers have probably been opened up at some point.  You can also see the midrange domes under the grill, a characteristic of the AR-3 and its saran grill material.  The logos and pins are missing, too, except for one.  The grill frames are slightly smaller than the opening, indicating someone's attempt to redo the grill frames.  On some of the last AR-3s, the cabinets were actually AR-3a-type, with the grill frames glued to a plywood wood strips just inside the walnut grill molding, rather than having the plastic grill frames "bowed" slightly and tucked under a slot.  Chances are the level controls began to give trouble, and someone took them down and probably took off the original grills.  

--Tom Tyson

[DavidDru]

Tom is like a forensic investigator.  Needs his own TV show.

You can see on the lower photo they had to use some staples or similar to keep the grille from falling on some kids head apparently.  I just picked up some M&K satellite speakers up in northern Idaho over the weekend for a buddy and they were hung from the ceiling for their life and because of that they are in fantastic shape - other than the 4 holes on the bottom of each from the eye bolts that were used to hang them.  (But I would rather have to fix that than a bunch of dings and scratches and water stains etc.

We look forward to photos.

[ra.ra]

At first glance, the thought occurred that they might be AR-1x's, but as Tom has correctly noted, the driver peeking thru in the lower left is clearly the AR-3 mid dome.

[tysontom]

1 hour ago, DavidDru said:

Tom is like a forensic investigator.  Needs his own TV show.

You can see on the lower photo they had to use some staples or similar to keep the grille from falling on some kids head apparently.  I just picked up some M&K satellite speakers up in northern Idaho over the weekend for a buddy and they were hung from the ceiling for their life and because of that they are in fantastic shape - other than the 4 holes on the bottom of each from the eye bolts that were used to hang them.  (But I would rather have to fix that than a bunch of dings and scratches and water stains etc.

We look forward to photos.

I was just thinking about everyone on this site, and I felt the same way about how skillful everyone has become in recognizing AR models, small nuances and model differences!  There is a lot of historical expertise on Classic Speaker Pages!

--Tom Tyson

[JeffS]

On 6/6/2016 at 0:10 AM, tysontom said:

Those are definitely AR-3s beyond a doubt, but the grills have been off, and someone apparently made new grill frames that are different from the originals, so the speakers have probably been opened up at some point.  You can also see the midrange domes under the grill, a characteristic of the AR-3 and its saran grill material.  The logos and pins are missing, too, except for one.  The grill frames are slightly smaller than the opening, indicating someone's attempt to redo the grill frames.  On some of the last AR-3s, the cabinets were actually AR-3a-type, with the grill frames glued to a plywood wood strips just inside the walnut grill molding, rather than having the plastic grill frames "bowed" slightly and tucked under a slot.  Chances are the level controls began to give trouble, and someone took them down and probably took off the original grills.  

--Tom Tyson

Canman,

Nice find! I hope you acquire them and put them to good use.

My bet is that the grills are original. As Tom stated, the last AR-3's had AR-3a cabinets with glued in frames, and the AR-3 saran grill was stapled to the frame just as the linen was for the AR-3a, but the saran shrinks over the years an distorts the masonite frame. My guess is that one of the grills looked like it might come off so someone did a quick staple fix.

My AR-3's were found at an estate sale a few years ago and were identified in the pictures the seller provided prior to the sale. They are late model units (serial # 69860 and serial # unknown). My first thought was the same as Tom's, because of the distortion the grill had been removed, but that wasn't the case. I had to pry both grills off of the glue. The 1st picture is from the estate sale and the 2nd was taken when at home.

If you get these keep in mind that if you remove the saran material to mount it to new frames, the material may not stretch enough to cover them. Other than adding velcro and a couple of small shims to apply some side force to keep the grills in the openings, I left mine as-is, and while they're not as handsome as earlier AR-3's where the grills are still intact, they are original. Also, 3a grills are a drop-in fit if you prefer the linen grill.

[DavidDru]

Dude, I hoped you grabbed that lamp at the estate sale too!

[JeffS]

In hindsight I should have grabbed that lamp, it's a great looking piece and it was in excellent condition. But that day I had AR 'tunnel vision'.

The sale was in a home built in 1967 with contents (mostly) of the era. Also for sale was a 'Scandanavian' dining room set, coffee table, and if memory serves, couch and chair, all in great shape.

The estate sale folks got the pricing right on the furniture, but to my great surprise just guessed on the 3's, which were $30. As I think about it now they simply may have looked at the rear of the speaker that was missing the label, and not seeing a model number, guessed at a price. I also purchased the near mint Dual 1019 / Shure V15-II turntable that went with the system, which I ended up selling.

[tysontom]

Do you have the serial numbers of the speakers?  Can you send a picture of both speakers with grills removed?  If that number is up in the 65,000 - 80,000 range, the enclosures would definitely be AR-3a-type with the grill frame just inside the walnut molding.  But I also wonder if the speakers might be older and someone used the AR-3a-type frame for the saran grill material.  Special mounting would have to be used to hold the grills in place.  By the way, it's not the saran grill that shrinks, it is the Masonite grill-frame material; it was for this reason that AR went to the molded-plastic frame in the early 60s for the original-style AR-3s.  Also, take a picture of the grills removed, back-side out, to show the outline of the frame, if you can.

Thanks.  That's a good catch if you got them for $30!  It shows that most people don't have a clue as to the value of this sort of thing. I sold an AR-3 pair (admittedly "mint") for 100-times that amount not too long ago, so those estate folks should probably stick to furniture and household knick-knacks. 

--Tom Tyson

[tysontom]

5 minutes ago, tysontom said:

Do you have the serial numbers of the speakers?  Can you send a picture of both speakers with grills removed?  If that number is up in the 65,000 - 80,000 range, the enclosures would definitely be AR-3a-type with the grill frame just inside the walnut molding.  But I also wonder if the speakers might be older and someone used the AR-3a-type frame for the saran grill material.  Special mounting would have to be used to hold the grills in place.  By the way, it's not the saran grill that shrinks, it is the Masonite grill-frame material; it was for this reason that AR went to the molded-plastic frame in the early 60s for the original-style AR-3s.  Also, take a picture of the grills removed, back-side out, to show the outline of the frame, if you can.

Thanks.  That's a good catch if you got them for $30!  It shows that most people don't have a clue as to the value of this sort of thing. I sold an AR-3 pair (admittedly "mint") for 100-times that amount not too long ago, so those estate folks should probably stick to furniture and household knick-knacks. 

--Tom Tyson

Oops.  Well, I see that I am confused on which AR-3s are which!  We're talking about two different sets of AR-3s, and both were absolute "steals."  

[JeffS]

Canman

I hope you don't mind that your thread has turned into a 'grill' thread.

Tom,

I still think that Canman's 3's have original grills and that the serial #'s are late model (Canman, those walnut cabinets are going to pop back to life and look great with a coat or two of boiled linseed oil!).

Didn't AR go from plastic grill frames to masonite on the AR-3? (My son just acquired an early set of 3's and they both have plastic grill frames - one speaker is from ~1961, the other from ~1963).

On the saran vs. masonite shrinkage: I worked in the plastic films industry for 25 years and spent part of that time unwinding, slitting, winding PVDC (saran) coated film. One thing that caused problems with film quality was storing the 1500# mill rolls of film in a warm warehouse. Enough shrinkage could occur that would make the film difficult, if not impossible, to unwind. So, my guess, is that AR's saran grill experienced enough shrinkage from being exposed to heat and/or sunlight over the course of ~48 years to cause flexing of the masonite frame that it is firmly attached to on all sides. Also, the masonite frames on the 3a's I have, and others I've seen, don't exhibit the same degree of distortion as the saran / masonite combination. (I've include a picture of my AR-3 and 3a grills to illustrate the distortion of the masonite).

As to your comment " so those estate folks should probably stick to furniture and household knick-knacks.", I couldn't agree more! That would keep the prices reasonable but what I've seen in the last few years is retail pricing on vintage audio equipment, often regardless of condition. Good 'finds' are getting harder to come by.

 

 

 

 

[Liangshan Marsh]

On 6/11/2016 at 7:47 AM, JeffS said:

Didn't AR go from plastic grill frames to masonite on the AR-3? (My son just acquired an early set of 3's and they both have plastic grill frames - one speaker is from ~1961, the other from ~1963).

 

 

 

 

 

 

My friend took the grille off the early  AR3 with serial C-4xxx and so strange the frame made by some kind of plywood or wood..

[tysontom]

On 6/11/2016 at 9:47 AM, JeffS said:

Canman

I hope you don't mind that your thread has turned into a 'grill' thread.

Tom,

I still think that Canman's 3's have original grills and that the serial #'s are late model (Canman, those walnut cabinets are going to pop back to life and look great with a coat or two of boiled linseed oil!).

Didn't AR go from plastic grill frames to masonite on the AR-3? (My son just acquired an early set of 3's and they both have plastic grill frames - one speaker is from ~1961, the other from ~1963).

On the saran vs. masonite shrinkage: I worked in the plastic films industry for 25 years and spent part of that time unwinding, slitting, winding PVDC (saran) coated film. One thing that caused problems with film quality was storing the 1500# mill rolls of film in a warm warehouse. Enough shrinkage could occur that would make the film difficult, if not impossible, to unwind. So, my guess, is that AR's saran grill experienced enough shrinkage from being exposed to heat and/or sunlight over the course of ~48 years to cause flexing of the masonite frame that it is firmly attached to on all sides. Also, the masonite frames on the 3a's I have, and others I've seen, don't exhibit the same degree of distortion as the saran / masonite combination. (I've include a picture of my AR-3 and 3a grills to illustrate the distortion of the masonite).

As to your comment " so those estate folks should probably stick to furniture and household knick-knacks.", I couldn't agree more! That would keep the prices reasonable but what I've seen in the last few years is retail pricing on vintage audio equipment, often regardless of condition. Good 'finds' are getting harder to come by.

On 6/11/2016 at 9:47 AM, JeffS said:

Canman

I hope you don't mind that your thread has turned into a 'grill' thread.

Tom,

I still think that Canman's 3's have original grills and that the serial #'s are late model (Canman, those walnut cabinets are going to pop back to life and look great with a coat or two of boiled linseed oil!).

Didn't AR go from plastic grill frames to masonite on the AR-3? (My son just acquired an early set of 3's and they both have plastic grill frames - one speaker is from ~1961, the other from ~1963).

On the saran vs. masonite shrinkage: I worked in the plastic films industry for 25 years and spent part of that time unwinding, slitting, winding PVDC (saran) coated film. One thing that caused problems with film quality was storing the 1500# mill rolls of film in a warm warehouse. Enough shrinkage could occur that would make the film difficult, if not impossible, to unwind. So, my guess, is that AR's saran grill experienced enough shrinkage from being exposed to heat and/or sunlight over the course of ~48 years to cause flexing of the masonite frame that it is firmly attached to on all sides. Also, the masonite frames on the 3a's I have, and others I've seen, don't exhibit the same degree of distortion as the saran / masonite combination. (I've include a picture of my AR-3 and 3a grills to illustrate the distortion of the masonite).

As to your comment " so those estate folks should probably stick to furniture and household knick-knacks.", I couldn't agree more! That would keep the prices reasonable but what I've seen in the last few years is retail pricing on vintage audio equipment, often regardless of condition. Good 'finds' are getting harder to come by.

 

 

 

 

 

JeffS:

The very first AR-3s, at the beginning, had a plywood grill frame, and then sometime later in 1959 (first actual year of manufacture for the AR-3), AR designed a molded-plastic frame.  The wood frames are easier to remove, for sure, and don't seem to distort as easily as the plastic frames.  Certainly, removing the plastic frame of an original, unmolested AR-3 is perilous and tedious—particularly since it has to be bowed slightly to remove—resulting in probably a 50/50 chance of snapping the plastic in places (the plastic is less pliable and more brittle after 50 years).  Getting it back together without sagging or distortion is a miracle, and I've never seen a replaced AR-3 grill with plastic frame that matched the factory original.  Also, AR did not wrap the saran grill material around the long edges of the frame; instead, the grill was bowed slightly and inserted under the molding (small amount of glue applied beforehand to the entire molding area).  At the short ends, the grill was wrapped around and glued and stapled.  When AR repaired an AR-3 at the factory, they simply cut the grill down the middle and ripped out the old frame and grill.  When finished, they replaced the grill with a brand new frame and grill, retaining the brass "AR" logo plate and "3" pin.

I stand corrected on the "shrinkage" of saran; maybe probably does shrink some, but saran and nylon are nearly identical, and I don't remember nylon shrinking too much, particularly in this thick a setup with it being woven, etc., but obviously it is pulling on the Masonite frames used later, causing them to distort.  Masonite, too, absorbs moisture and bends very easily.  AR told me once that any pressure on the frame would cause it to distort over time, and the weight and tightness of the saran weave (it had to be pulled hard to get it to lay flat) put constant pressure on the Masonite frame, causing it to bend or bow over time.  Since saran doesn't "stretch" like the later beige linen cloth, there was greater likelihood of the constant tension on the Masonite to cause it to gradually distort over time.   

That frame image on the left in the picture is definitely the 1974-later Norwood grill frame for replacement AR-3s.  An attempt was made to strengthen the material, but nothing could keep it from distorting.  The AR-3a grill on the right, which is also a newer post 1974-Norwood "Velcro" grill for the AR-3a, uses the newer linen which, like the original beige linen, does not distort, simply because the material easily stretches.

—Tom Tyson

[canman]

I am the original poster of this thread and glad to report I finally got the speakers home this afternoon. I can confirm they are AR3'still and serial numbers are as follows:

69923

69935.

More later but recovering from carrying these down two flights of stairs.

I am really pumped to hear these soon.

[owlsplace]

lookin' good ...

[tysontom]

7 hours ago, canman said:

I am the original poster of this thread and glad to report I finally got the speakers home this afternoon. I can confirm they are AR3'still and serial numbers are as follows:

69923

69935.

More later but recovering from carrying these down two flights of stairs.

I am really pumped to hear these soon.

Great work!  For sure, man-handling two 52-53 lbs loudspeakers down stairs would be stressful.  Hope you didn't hurt your back. 

Serial number 69923-69935 were definitely manufactured by Acoustic Research at the 24 Thorndike Street, Cambridge, Massachusetts factory in May-July 1972.  The AR-3 was produced through 1973 and finally discontinued in early 1974.  For nearly ten years after it was introduced in 1958, the AR-3 was considered to be the finest, most accurate loudspeaker available anywhere for any price.  To this day, a pair of properly functioning AR-3s is still a wonder to behold! 

These particular speakers you have likely used AR-3a-type cabinets, and probably have ferrite woofers!  Send pictures when you can.  

Remember, when you first connect them to an amplifier, be sure to gently rotate the level controls back and forth a great deal to get contact.  Don't be surprised or dismayed if you hear nothing from the midrange and tweeter drivers at first!  You might have to spend ten or twenty minutes turning them back and forth until finally you will begin to hear some light "crackle" of sound through the midrange and tweeter.  Sometimes, you can come back later and you will easily find those "contact" points.  AR level controls work sometimes in the "paranormal" world, so don't be surprised.  Don't apply too much power at first!  

Congratulations!

--Tom Tyson

[canman]

OK, have the AR-3s hooked up to my McIntosh 2505 with C-26 preamp.

One speaker plays great, other not so much. Sound very muffled and not much volume. Some scratching when I manipulate the controls as well. Just applied dexoit to controls on back and have worked back and forth for about 10 minutes. Helped a little but still not great. I am afraid to take grills off but know I need to.

What is best way to do it without damaging grills?

[JeffS]

Canman,

Section 2.3 of the AR-3a restoration guide will help you here. If you decide to pry the edges take care to protect the front of the cabinet. They should come off fairly easily.

 

[tysontom]

14 hours ago, canman said:

OK, have the AR-3s hooked up to my McIntosh 2505 with C-26 preamp.

One speaker plays great, other not so much. Sound very muffled and not much volume. Some scratching when I manipulate the controls as well. Just applied dexoit to controls on back and have worked back and forth for about 10 minutes. Helped a little but still not great. I am afraid to take grills off but know I need to.

What is best way to do it without damaging grills?

The grills may be attached with Velcro, but likely AR used hot glue to hold them in place.  Gently try to pry the grills away from the cabinet, but watch the walnut grill molding.  It's easy to scratch the molding.  Use a wide putty knife and use care.

[canman]

Ok, I got the grill off of the bad sounding ar3.  Never been off before, masonite frame with hot glue holding it on.

Now that we can see inside, I have no middle or treble or very little. Bass is questionable as well.  Not nearly as loud ad the other matching ar3.

Not sure what to do know except study.... what ideas or suggestions do you have?

I set the AR3 next to the stacked Advents and by JBL 100's for fun.

[tysontom]

Good!  First thing to do is to take a knife and scratch off the paint on the three terminals on the tweeter-terminal strip.  The "TTS" is the oblong terminal plate located between the midrange and tweeter.  Then, take a 1.5 VDC flashlight battery with a wire connected (preferably soldered) to the negative and another wire connected to the positive terminals, and "touch" the wire to first the center terminal and the other wire to each outside terminal and listen for any "crackling" noises from the drivers.  Never attempt to directly check voice-coil's continuity of the exposed aluminum lead-in wires.  Also, do not hold the battery connections for more than a brief second; this will needlessly heat the aluminum voice coils.  In fact, it's best to simply touch the wire on and off to listen for any sound, thus establishing continuity of the midrange and tweeter voice coils.  This is just a quick, simple test to be sure you don't have any voice coils that have been burned out by someone over-driving the speakers.  By touching these terminals, you are bypassing the crossover by putting small voltage directly to each driver.  Do it sparingly.  Be very careful when you work around the tweeter's lead-in wires.  These wires are aluminum and are fragile; avoid touching them if possible unless you are very careful.  That tweeter looks to be in excellent condition, by the way, and the suspension has not "popped" in any way, meaning that it is clearly within the original spec as far as alignment is concerned, and the dome hasn't migrated away from the top plate.  

The woofers, though ugly looking here, are probably fine.  They are very durable and don't often give trouble.  You should put all of your fingers around the outside of the center dust cap and gently push the cone "inward" about 1/4 to 1/2-inch, and then immediately release the cone.  It should return to the "center" position slowly within 1-3 seconds or so.  It should feel like you are pushing the cone through a viscous fluid when you depress the cone.  If you don't feel this resistance and the cone bounces back immediately when you depress it, the surround might be leaking air; but frankly, only a few of the 3700-series woofers suffer from this problem.  Do not apply any butyl-rubber or other compound to the cloth surround unless you are positive the cone is leaking air through the cloth.  Applying anything to the surround can do more damage than good if the surround is not leaking, despite what anyone says.  The free-air resonance can be affected by applying substance to the surround, and this is not good.  Take a clean paint brush and lightly "dust" the dirt and grime from the cone and surround.  It has collected a lot of dust over time.

This AR-3 definitely has an AR-3a cabinet, but the drivers are the original-type Alnico #3700 woofer and #4500 2-inch midrange and the #375 1-3/8-inch super tweeter.  This was definitely getting to the end of the line for these drivers, so you are fortunate to have the original-style drivers in an AR-3 this far along.

--Tom Tyson

 

[GD70]

You scored! But you paid too much! I got mine for 19.99 from SA!

They look great and should be an easy restoration. I'll be following along, curious what ails the quiet speaker. With AR's, almost by default, I immediately think bad caps, and corroded pots for low output. 

Keep going, and post pics as you go along.

Glenn