AR-58s -- the lastest of the bestest 12-inch bookshelf speakers

[owlsplace]

Saint Christopher smiled on UPS and the AR-58s arrived today unscathed.

One mid-range has a cone dimple but it had that before it was shipped.

I have to wonder what AR was thinking when they put those cheesy spring clip connectors on the back ... I managed to get some wires to stay in place for a demo -- not your usual Classic-era AR sound -- more like third row rather than tenth row. They are quite a bit brighter than the ADS L980's here so I think they have aged well. A touch bass shy of the 980's but that could be the positioning. Together they make a formidable pair which I'm sure will not go unnoticed by the neighbors.

The veneer is pretty much intact -- one bottom has some minor corner damage -- top stains are minimal. I will give them the dignity they deserved but were not originally given. So far I like their timbre overall depending on source material and volume and expect it will only improve with recap and proper positioning, etc. I'm assuming they were not recapped at this point or they surely would have had the spring-clip connectors replaced.

Apparently this model shipped with foam trim around the woofer surround which has since gone south. An archive photo shows the foam trim below. The woofer refoam appears to be good quality and well-done.

Stay tuned ...

Roger

[ar_pro]

Those look nice, Roger - the corners seem to be in good shape, which is unusual, anymore.

I've had some success using duct tape to pull out dents in midrange domes; this was a not-uncommon condition for these drivers - I once saw a dented midrange on a brand-new AR-9 that had just been removed from its carton!

Any further thoughts on utilizing the AR-91/92 crossover for this speaker? The -3 and -6 dB cut switches could help with the perceived brightness.

Also, please let us know about the condition of the acoustic stuffing; my most recent experience with the earlier-model AR-91 showed some obvious degradation of the stuffing, with a lot of dust getting into the air when it was disturbed.

[owlsplace]

12 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

Those look nice, Roger - the corners seem to be in good shape, which is unusual, anymore.

I've had some success using duct tape to pull out dents in midrange domes; this was a not-uncommon condition for these drivers - I once saw a dented midrange on a brand-new AR-9 that had just been removed from its carton!

Any further thoughts on utilizing the AR-91/92 crossover for this speaker? The -3 and -6 dB cut switches could help with the perceived brightness.

Also, please let us know about the condition of the acoustic stuffing; my most recent experience with the earlier-model AR-91 showed some obvious degradation of the stuffing, with a lot of dust getting into the air when it was disturbed.

Will do on the stuffing.

Currently looking at 91/92 xovers with bi-amp option and fusing.

Roger

[Sonnar]

Congratulations, very nice!  I' m very intrigued by AR 58s , I' ve found a nice pair here for 460 euros , as shown in pics they seems all original. Before buyng them , I would like to know how they sounds in comparison to classic AR speakers like 3 or 3a, in particular their tonal balance, if they 're bright-oriented . A friend told me it sounds better if positioned floor-standing, if positioned in classic Bookshelf fashion perhaps have a lighter bass . Unfortunately these pair are located 250 miles far from my home. Thank You, Adriano

[owlsplace]

Adriano,

I would say your friend is correct. The 58s is bright compared to the 3's. I don't have 3's to compare them to or even any listening time on that model. My 5's are off-line at the moment but I may put a set on for the sake of comparison.

Just off the top I would say the 58s would do very well boundary-coupled in a heavily damped room, drapes, carpets, etc., on chamber music. Once the volume goes up things may change. So far I don't find them fatiguing.

Do to the differences in driver design I suspect the 58s will image the soundstage a little more accurately. My room is not properly set up at the moment so don't hold me to that.

Roger

[Carlspeak]

I'm refoaming some 58Bs 4 inch mids. They look quite a bit different from the OP's pics.

[ra.ra]

The discussion here about the 58s being a bit "bright" reinforces my opinion that it would benefit from HF tone controls to adapt to room acoustics. Roger, your speakers look really good, but I thought you were using an equalizer?

Carl, the 58B is the model which followed the 58s. 

[Carlspeak]

21 minutes ago, ra.ra said:

Carl, the 58B is the model which followed the 58s.

That's surprising because the 58b mids look much less modern than the one's in the pics. 

[ar_pro]

As mentioned, the drivers in the AR-58S are identical to those used in the AR-9 Verticals series, and should be expected to render a "brighter" result when compared against the classic-era AR-3, AR-3a, and AR-5.

Apparently, the only difference between the 58S crossover and the AR-91's is the level controls in the '91. After re-capping - and possibly installing the AR-91/92 crossover - I think Roger will find a sound that is very consistent with the rest of the Verticals series: improved closer-field imaging & room-filling, balanced output from top to bottom - especially in a larger space - and the ability to handle more power than most of us would feel comfortable sending to an AR-3 or AR-3a.

On reflection, I'd also suggest that the 58S will benefit from a stand. Despite AR's position that the AR-91 was designed to be floor-standing (it's in Tim Holl's paper), I cannot stress strongly enough how much better it sounds (to me) elevated, and with its tweeters at the height of those in the AR-9. I'd also be unconcerned with its bass performance; if anything, the slight-but-audible "wooliness" that the '91 has when placed on the floor disappears, and the effect of its 700 Hz crossover more closely mirrors the wonderful woofer/midrange balance achieved with the 575 Hz crossover in the AR-3a, but with an improved ability to handle power & generate increased spl.

In other words, I think they will sound great on stands.

[Aadams]

I have 3as  and 9s and 58s.  At my house the 58s needs an equalizer to bring it into line with what I expect to hear.  They are unbearable to me with the equalizer bypassed.  If one had a pair of 58s in a heavily furnished and carpeted room or maybe an anechoic chamber they would probably be ok out of the box. 
They are a fine loudspeaker but will need equalizer help in most situations IMO .

Adams

[owlsplace]

Yes, they are bright, they can be equalized, the 91/92 crossover can be used which offers -3, -6db attenuation on the mids and highs, etc.

They have been playing Baroque chamber music all morning without much of any equalization and I'm not tired of them yet. I suspect they would sound a lot mellower with a 70's era amp. I may try them with the old Fisher Studio Standard just for grins.

Right now they are up off the floor with the top of the speaker at about 50" and away from room boundaries. I did have some 70's Rock music on yesterday for awhile and they sounded a bit "stratospheric" on some of it. A lot of music from that era was poorly produced. Having to tone it down a bit today so ....

The AR-58s' do sound a lot mellower paired with the ADS L980's and the Adcom 555-II doesn't mind the load. That's pretty much the way I listen to music these days -- different music, different speakers -- different speakers to avoid aggravating the neighbors, etc. I also have way to many projects to ever expect to complete them all which makes it interesting to see which ones make it to completion and which ones fall by the wayside. Will see if the upstairs remodel makes it this year as it is supposed to house the AR-5 triumvirate -- downstairs is the AR-6 triumvirate and what is shaping up to be the 12-inch series which opens up some more possibilities....

Roger

[JeffS]

Roger,

Congratulations on acquiring your 58s's!

I've always liked the look of that AR bookshelf line, but especially the 58s with its' walnut veneer as opposed to the vinyl wrap on the others in the series. I've also thought that AR should have offered a second grill color, as Boston Acoustics did with the A150, for this line. Not sure what they called it, but I think it mimics well the color of the 3a's linen in a stretch fabric, and would have given the buyer the option of a 'heritage' AR look in a modern speaker.

I'm guessing that you'll like these alot once you settle on your placement and tame the high end to your liking.

[Sonnar]

Thank You all for precious informations about the AR 58s sound. Probably these speakers are too bright-oriented to me, I prefer the warm and smooth sound of the 3 and 3a .

[owlsplace]

16 hours ago, JeffS said:

Congratulations on acquiring your 58s's! I've always liked the look of that AR bookshelf line, but especially the 58s with its' walnut veneer as opposed to the vinyl wrap on the others in the series. I've also thought that AR should have offered a second grill color, as Boston Acoustics did with the A150, for this line. Not sure what they called it, but I think it mimics well the color of the 3a's linen in a stretch fabric, and would have given the buyer the option of a 'heritage' AR look in a modern speaker.

I'm guessing that you'll like these alot once you settle on your placement and tame the high end to your liking....

Yes, I'm liking them already. The only thing they have in common with the AR-3 is the woofer, otherwise they are the step-child of the AR-9 series.

Michiganpat went with a lighter grill cloth on his set ...

5 hours ago, Sonnar said:

Thank You all for precious informations about the AR 58s sound. Probably these speakers are too bright-oriented to me, I prefer the warm and smooth sound of the 3 and 3a .

Good choice in your case, Adriano. These are the Volkswagons of the AR 12-inch 3-way bookshelf speakers that definitely need some aftermarket attention; however, they are the only ones using AR-9 style drivers which makes them somewhat unique.

Roger

[ra.ra]

Roger's speakers appear to be a particularly fine pair, and I totally agree with JeffS about the desirability of the real walnut on this model. He also makes a good point about the grille cloth - - I've always found the dark brown stretchy scrim cloth to be lacking in visual appeal, and michiganpat has created a very attractive alternative. Also, the flat panel grilles shown in Roger's opening pic appear to be original, whereas the sculpted grilles shown in Adriano's post may not be.  

This has turned out to become a very interesting thread. I may be wrong about this, but I think this entire series of speakers (18s, 28s, 38s, 48s and 58s) may be the first AR bookshelf speakers since the AR-1 and AR-2 to have all drivers vertically aligned along the centerline of the front baffle. The look is very neat, and maybe even rational, but what exactly is it about these combinations of drivers that allowed AR engineers to reach this conclusion some 20+ years after the introduction of the asymmetric driver layout of the AR-3 (and 4 and 5 and 6 and so on)?

I know I am repeating myself here, but for my money, Aadams hits the nail on the head, suggesting that without external tone control, the stock version AR-58s, with no means of attenuation control at the speaker itself, just might be wholly unacceptable for certain (hard, live, reflective) room environments. He and Roger appear to use separate equalizers to accomplish this attenuation, and others have suggested the possibility of amending the crossover with switches to become more like the AR-91. (Right now, the 58s is actually more like the rare AR-915, which I think is a Euro version of the AR-91 sans switches.) I'd still like to see someone take this course of action with the 58s, and like Roger has stated, also get rid of the cheesy spring-loaded wire terminals. 

But the most interesting part of this thread is the discussion of perceived brightness. We have three members here stating that the 58s is indeed a speaker model with this identifiable (and perhaps undesirable?) audible characteristic, and a fourth member losing interest in a possible pursuit of this model based on these comments, without having auditioned the speaker. Yet in m-pat's excellent referenced thread, we have two other well-respected members stating that the AR-58s does not possess this so-called "brightness", which only serves to reinforce the notion that each and every listener has different tastes and opinions. "Beauty is in the ear of the beholder", so clearly, everyone really needs to audition and evaluate speakers based on listening preferences and specific room environments before drawing any hard conclusions about potential performance.        

 

[valkyrie]

Owlsplace.  Congrats on your find - those should be excellent speakers.   In regards your complaint that they are a bit "bright" I would suggest that such is the legacy of the AR-9 series.  Holl, I think, was responding to a great many critical comments regarding the slightly "dark" sound of the AR-3 series.  So the Nine and all of its family have always sounded a bit "bright" to many people.

When I rebuilt my own AR-9s - with all new caps (film caps in the upper three driver sections) the speakers became even "brighter".  I ended up adding some resistors (20 watt ceramics) to both the UMR (big dome) and the tweeter sections.  As I recall I added a couple of ohms to the tweeter crossover and almost 4 ohms to the UMR section.  This seemed to restore a more musical balance.  YMMV.

If you have the time and the inclination I would suggest that you start with a couple of ohms resistance on each of the dome drivers crossover section.   Leave the woofers so that you can easily get back inside to modify this start point.  You may get lucky and find that 2 ohms is sufficient for your tastes - and it may take another trip back into the speaker to tune to taste.  

Good luck and enjoy the listening - those should be wonderful speakers once you have rebuilt the crossovers and tuned to your taste.

[owlsplace]

Valkyrie,

I'll have to resort to paraphrasing Forest Gump, "Bright is as bright does!"

I've been paring the 58s' with the ADS L980's all morning. They complement each other quite well since the 980's sound a bit dull by comparison. Some have mentioned the 980's were the true successors to the AR-3's.

Earlier I mentioned 3rd row vs 10th row sound dynamics, but that isn't the all of it. I had some jazz on last night and for a minute I was transported back 20-years to a venue in Peru and I think that has more to do with articulation. These 58s' are the most articulate speakers on hand here at the moment. It would be interesting to slip in a pair of 10pi's or 11's at some point ....

Thanks for the heads-up on the film caps. I may try to wire an external xover until everything is dialed-in.

Roger

 

 

[Sonnar]

Which is the concept of " brightness " and " darkness " ? Many years ago ( at the time I was fifteen years old and my ears are better than now ) my father had AR 10 Pi and they 're a bit on the bright side to me. I consider AR 3's tonal balance as the closest to the real acoustic instruments, as a listener in 10th row of a theater, but surely a performer or a conductor have a different perspective. Nothing bad of course, it' s only a matter of taste. Someone prefers the presence , more detailed and transparent, it 's a matter of priority . But I know many people consider AR 3 and 3a have a dark and dull sound, which I prefer to call unobtrusive .

[JeffS]

I must have missed Michiganpat 's thread. He achieved the look I would like if I had a pair, though I'm sure my 'preservationist' side would keep the original grills, too.

If the high end is the same as that of the AR-9, then a little adjustment for the room may be all that's needed. An equalizer may be the best solution. I always thought that the 3dB adjustments on the 9 were a little too coarse.

 

[michiganpat]

well, my only experience with classic era AR's are the 2ax's I restored....my first introduction to the AR sound was my uncle's setup, a marantz 2265 with 2 pair of AR18's stacked....I personally found the 2ax's a bit "dull" compared to the 18's, but it could have been that the tweeters were on their way out.....I also have had some Holographic Imaging M5's, which I liked very much, and wish I hadn't sold....the 58S's to me sound similar to the 18's but on steriods on the bottom end, and a little more "air" up top....

these are what I used when I redid the crossovers....I took the boards completely out to work on them easier...

http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-gold-plated-banana-5-way-speaker-wire-binding-post-terminal--260-302

for the 40uf cap, I paralleled 4 of the 10uf surplus caps from madisound, for the 24, I paralleled 2 of the 10UF surplus caps + a 4uf solen or dayton (don't remember which), and then used a bennic NPE for the big woofer cap....

in hindsight, as a "resto mod" I wish I would have knocked the square corners off the grille frames with about a 1/2" 45 degree chamfer, and used the linen, to mimic the shape of the foam grills the original ADD series had...

[owlsplace]

Okay, I think I have settled on a direction for these.

The various perspectives on Classic-era sound and post-Classic are interesting.

The 91 crossovers are on the way and it is simple enough to add bi-amp capability. I may change the amount of cut offered by the switches.

Beyond that would be a little too anal and beyond the realm of "bookshelf" speakers -- something on the order of tri-amped, active crossovers, etc. -- although you could have some fun building an amp-stand for these and feeding them with a passive preamp for a minimalist system. Contemplating all this has changed my perspective on my AR-5 project a bit.

Roger

[Aadams]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 6:57 PM, Sonnar said:

Which is the concept of " brightness " and " darkness " ? Many years ago ( at the time I was fifteen years old and my ears are better than now ) my father had AR 10 Pi and they 're a bit on the bright side to me. I consider AR 3's tonal balance as the closest to the real acoustic instruments, as a listener in 10th row of a theater, but surely a performer or a conductor have a different perspective. Nothing bad of course, it' s only a matter of taste. Someone prefers the presence , more detailed and transparent, it 's a matter of priority . But I know many people consider AR 3 and 3a have a dark and dull sound, which I prefer to call unobtrusive .

I agree with you Sonnar.  It doesn't matter why, because the listening experience for each of us is unique, but when I was young I liked horn loaded JBLs and remember how dull ARs sounded in comparison  Now I too prefer what some call the  dark and dull sound.  

[lARrybody]

On 5/7/2016 at 9:43 PM, owlsplace said:

 

 

Quote

I have to wonder what AR was thinking when they put those cheesy spring clip connectors on the back

 

On 5/9/2016 at 8:49 AM, michiganpat said:

these are what I used when I redid the crossovers....I took the boards completely out to work on them easier...

http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-gold-plated-banana-5-way-speaker-wire-binding-post-terminal--260-302

I also replace the spring clips with those exact parts. Have done 18S, 28s, 38S and 48S that way. Had no Idea the 58S used the same speaker clips. They are quite often broken.

On 5/9/2016 at 8:49 AM, michiganpat said:

my first introduction to the AR sound was my uncle's setup, a marantz 2265 with 2 pair of AR18's stacked.

Good to know someone has also stacked AR18S's.

 

[owlsplace]

Okay, it was a mystical day so the Ar-91 crossovers arrived today so you know me:

Did you catch that no-solder joint on the original crossover that was buried under the hot-melt glue?

Maybe it is the wine but these speakers are messing with my mind ...

Roger

[wilson]

Watching with great interest as I also have some 58's in the queue.  I'm currently using mine unrestored and they do require some eq to tame the highs, but I'm guessing that the 91 crossovers will make them perfect.  Great speakers.